News

Jo Francis - 30 September 2008

That's interesting. I'm looking at FL Group's 2007 accounts now and it lists its Wyndeham investment as 49%.

Seems to me the way these interlinked Icelandic investment houses and banks swap stuff around is a bit like an elaborate game of pass the parcel... what happens when the music stops?

Jack Sheperd - 30 September 2008

I have been saying for a long time that Iceland was in danger of having to go to the IMF.

Icelands debt is larger than its GDP.

Landsbanki has just lost £200m+ on XL travel and its chairman is also the West Ham United chairman and we can all see what is happening at Upton Park.

The chickens are coming home to roost. The UK has a trillion pound credit card debt, at 29% interest rate how on earth is it ever going to be repaid??

Daniel Levi - 01 October 2008

[removed on request of author]

Colin Thompson - 01 October 2008

Think on the positive side and make sure the business what ever it is, manages the `change` with inspiration, innovation, investment and involvement of time.

Business and general life is about dialogue that we `all` understand and respond to. So make the playing field is equal, so all people understand the language used and the action to take, to receive and accept, so business life and general life is successful for `all` involved.

Yes, you can achieve all things in life by your attitude to be positive, you have the solution in you, so go forward and use it now!

Colin Thompson

Cavendish

www.cavendish-mr.org.uk

Robert Marsden - 01 October 2008

I couldn't help but follow Daniel's suggestion and take a look at the Company Report.

At first I nearly choked on my latte! It looked like a £2.2M loss! On second reading I realised it was actually a ISK2.2M loss - £12,000.

That said, a loss of £12,000 on revenues of £62M seems a tad unfortunate.

I wonder how much the print site is worth. Hope the mortgage isn't with Bank of Iceland!

david ward - 01 October 2008

I'm sure that the UK Print & Publishing industry will shed no tears on hearing the news of Wyndenhams imminent demise..

The time has come for this particular dinosaur to become extinct!

The Mighty wind - 01 October 2008

I for one will shed a tear the devastation of the web offset sector absolutely breaks my heart and fills me with dread for the future. It is bad enough having to hear the horror stories from former colleagues without reading someone egging on more of the same

Daniel Levi - 02 October 2008

[removed on request of author]

Simon Biltcliffe- Webmart - 02 October 2008

I'm very sorry for what is going on there. From being a sleepy, old-fashioned high-quality web house, Paul Utting came up with a brave concept -in some ways the same as St Ives is much more successfully executing now -of capturing the front end and then offering many outputs to the client.

Where the difference is that they ha the St Ives vision with the finances of Polestar and i is this that un-ravelled the strategy. Boring old St Ives kept its powder dry & cash in the bank, & now how sage-like does that look.

Wyndham do not deserve to be here but being put into play by the vagaries of the financial markets and the awful state of the magazine market means that something will happen and fast if it is not to close.

Right strategy and people; wrong timing and financing. They are not masters of their own destiny now and so any call for calm as all will be OK is more a hope than a statement. Sadly.

Simon Biltcliffe

MD

WEBMART

www.webmartUK.com

Don Keyballs - 02 October 2008

David Ward - I seem to remember this particular dinosaur getting rid of you a few years back!

The Mighty wind - 02 October 2008

Thanks daniel, I have no personal interest other than objecting to David Ward taking obvious glee in yet another web printer hitting stormy seas.

Talking of which

"At least Polestar seem to have regained their strength under Barry Hibberts control, swift, decisive and beneath the shiny exterior he does indeed possess something rare - management skills......."

interesting point of view

Daniel Levi - 03 October 2008

Good discussion thus far, some glorious points of view and some strong critiques of a once wonderous company. I must say that in response to the mighty wind, I have had the pleasure to meet with Mr. Hibbert on occasions - normally at award ceremonies where he is justly receiving accolades for his forward thinking and positive input into the trade, and i must say, he came across as a very strong minded determined and authoritive gent, my summation of his abilities has been decided though on the fact that he has - over the last five years or so managed to breathe life back into a company that was fast losing credibility - he negotiated some superb re-financing packages and the ship is now sailing well along on clear waters. [removed on request of author]

lordof weboffset - 03 October 2008

Daniel,

Polestar are not winning the race, no one is.

Take some time and have a look at the report and accounts from as many UK web offset companies as you can find.

Add the results together, and you will be shocked. Polestar, the race leaders, should be particularly interesting to you.

Something needs to happen to save the web offset industry in the UK, and I fear that consolidation and rationalisation are the only way forward.

Ask yourself how many web companies have closed in the last 10 years. 2 have closed this year alone, and given recent news and the current financial climate they will not be last.

I am sure some of you on this thread have some ideas, and I for one, am all ears, but please keep it real!

Daniel Levi - 03 October 2008

[removed on request of author]

David Levy - 03 October 2008

The writing seems to be on the wall regarding the future of both Wyndeham and Copper Clegg. When will UK web offset companies realise, that to put all your eggs in one basket by relying on the majority of your business from one sector, ie: magazines, that when a downturn occurs, they are incredibly vulnerable. Given that magazine publishers take no prisoners, securing other revenue streams would seem a course to take for survival. Take this as a warning, if you rely on one market for more than 60% of your revenues, you are on thin ice !!!

Others unfortunately will follow, unless you change your ways.

Douglas Richardson - 03 October 2008

Having just flown back from yet another warm holiday, I read with interest the various contributions to this subject.

As someone who had a reputation of saying as I saw it, it dissapoints me to read comments on difficult and sensative subjects written by people who hide behind stupid signatures.

So Lord Web Offset and Mighty Wind and all those like you, have the courage to publish your name as it will at least bring some integrity to your views.

Doug Richardson

Former employee of the printing industry

Print Spectator - 03 October 2008

This is getting quite bizarre -

'he negotiated some superb re-financing packages and the ship is now sailing well along on clear waters'.

After teetering on the brink of collapse for years, Polestar is now fine apparently. About as wrong as you can get.

Polestar is scared, we're all scared, the margins are wafer thin, we're slashing prices to try and keep some kind of baseline fill and companies, fine companies with a long tradition are going to go to the wall because the industry is in a lot of trouble. There will be less printers here this time next year, that is certain. Credit has stalled and most of us need that liquidity just to stand still. Customers are going to have a lot less choice and we printers are going to have a lot less to worry about soon because our industry will be very much smaller.

David Levy - 03 October 2008

You are quite right print spectator. Polestar has not had some miraculous turnaround. The debt restructuring was the only way for there backers to walk away only badly damaged, not catastrophically damaged. Whilst you have UK web printers undercutting exisiting low prices \(you know who you are, and when the big man in Reading's patience wears out, you will go, and not a moment to soon), the market will not recover. One last point, when the Euro recovers, and paper prices in the UK fall in line with Europe \(not long to wait), then you will be in for another shock. Modern factories, with sound investment, 1st class quality and service, and new machines, combined with additional services for the customer, and all a short hop over the water, the UK sector will have even more to be gloomy about.

The Mighty wind - 03 October 2008

doug

I tend to read the comments people make and take judgements on what they have to say rather than what they call themselves, but i agree with you when you say you had a reputation in the print industry.

David

you make some sound points about the european sector but the picture there is not as rosy as you outline and in some respects there problems may just be beginning.

Daniel

"Lets just thank ourselves we're so close to europe we'll be able to outsource the whole of the sector!"

this is the sort of comment that gives daniels a bad name

David Levy - 03 October 2008

Mr Wind - Europe is certainly not immune to the turmoil raging i the web market. You only have to look at the RotoSmeets/HHBV/Quebecor/Maury situation to see everything is far from rosy. But when you have printers who print more than A4 section size work, you open up your markets to more than magazines. Most printers, certainly in Germany \(as an example) run a mix of short and long grain as well as short cut of machines. Much more adaptable, and given the paper price situation, stand to gain from innovative formats that can help save money for the customer, and still make money for the printer. The irony is that Cooper Clegg had for a while a USP with there short cut of presses, not so know, and the consequences are going to be felt.

With regards to 'outsourcing it all to Europe'; the devil in me says that would be great for my business, but the human being in me says no thank you, given the casualties that would occur.

The Mighty wind - 03 October 2008

Hi David-

why would outsourcing it to europe be great for your business [if you were a devil of course]. This discussion would be well worth having, what exactly are you not being offered by the UK, is it the service, the technology, price, added value, have you been let down, what exactly? This i think would be interesting to explore.

Daniel Levi - 03 October 2008

[removed on request of author]

The Mighty wind - 04 October 2008

prove a point daniel?

look back over the posts and the ones concerning the winning of the contracts. Nobody is winning here. And if you look at the posts you have no argument to prove or disprove. The argument is not at what price a contract can be won but at what price an industry can be sustained.

Daniel Levi - 04 October 2008

What price an industry can be sustained? Easy, that seems to have been decided by some icelandic investors! I must say 'Mighty Wind' if that is your real birth name, that I am not being negative, like i said I don't choose the paintings I just appreciate the art! Come back and put something forward once you have a bit more involvement in the industry, obviously you must be outside looking in from your posts either that or a poor member of the afflicteds management team trying to dissapate some bad karma!

David Levy - 06 October 2008

Hi Mighty Wind,

Here's the rub. I work for a European printer, so any migration of more work fromthe UK to Europe would be good for me. However, it would be a sad reflection on the UK industry I have worked in, to see more UK companies go to the wall. It seems to me that the companies struggling, have not changed in there attitude to providing services to there customers since there inception. To just carry on offering nothing but printed sections, is a recipe for disaster. In order to prosper, printers need to offer much more than print. Anyone can go and buy big pagination presses, but unless you give the customer added value, then you are a slave to price.  As I made in my point earlier, very few printers offer pre-press services, database managment, repro, etc. It is these services that can make a difference, not only in winning the work, but in retaining it at sustainable levels. If you just offer sections, you may as well be offering any other commodity. If you are offering a commodity, customers will choose there supplier purely on price ! And there will be more losers than winners in this situation.

Bill Cheesman - 06 October 2008

Couldn't agree more David. We are a 'miniscule' print outfit but we see the job through in-house from conception to delivery. It has worked for us so I am sure it would work for a much larger company. 

wolf maluchha - 06 October 2008

If Wyndehams are for sale who would buy it?

Daniel Levi - 07 October 2008

[removed on request of author]

Truth and Justice - 07 October 2008

 Daniel Levi - posting at 0439 in the morning? You really need to get a life mate...... :-)

Ben Debus - 07 October 2008

As an employee for the past umpteen years both pre and post Wyndeham, I am extremely saddened and annoyed with some of the negative comments that have been posted here. It is obvious that certain people still have very large chips on their shoulders and are gleefully grinding their axes in anticipation regarding our possible demise, I don't need to name them, most of you are intelligent enough to work out to whom I refer. I don't understand what it is they hope to gain from such blatent propoganda, such as the Godlike praising of Barry Hibbert, who did little to secure Polstar's turnaround, the fact is the banks had to bail them out by wiping out millions of pounds worth of debt did that. I doubt they would have taken the same stance now given the present banking crises.

No, now is the time to think of the employees, their families and and their future. I for one hope that we can weather the crises with suport from our customers and suppliers and that we can gain the backing needed to keep us afloat. Print is one of the most cuthroat industries around and prices are at the lowest for years, I would hate to see yet another printer go to the wall, the competion is still needed, otherwise we will end up with a few mega companies running the show, with little for the Publishers to choose from, much like, ironically, the banks are heading towards. Then, publishers be warned, the tables will turn and you can bet your last Icelandic Crown, that those printers will start to push the prices back up again, there will then be no competition to run to.

Even though Wyndeham have the equipment, the staff and ability to produce the product, we are now in the hands of the Icelandic Government and the money men under them. Lets hope they can see the potential still bubbling under the surface.

We are not a dinosaur, we are far further up the evolutionary tree than that, for all our sake's lets hope we are not allowed to become extinct.

Otherwise - Got any jobs going Mr Biltclffe?

Daniel Levi - 08 October 2008

Straneg view Mr Bendy bus - shame you views need to be posted under a pseudo name, cowardice maybe. And you talk about worrying for the safety of employees and their families, surely as a student of the game you must realize that employees and families have never been of interest to big corporations. [removed on request of author]

Daniel Levi - 08 October 2008

[removed on request of author]

The Mighty wind - 10 October 2008

Hi david

cannot really argue with your comments, I have worked for quite a number of UK web offset houses and most of them operate in a state of utter chaos barely managing to control their core business so i would dread to think how they would attempt to branch out into added services, although a very small number have been successful when they have.

The ironic thing about the investments in high pagination presses is that they were sold on the basis that they would nibble into the low run end of the gravure market and most UK users are printing 20,000 runs on them.

In europe there were many benefits for printers [especially in germany which was effectively a closed market] however this is changing and eastern europe is having a major affect on competition there [according to my contacts, I worked there during the early nineties]. Maury had many problems before HHBV appeared on the scene and Quebecor stripped out many print factories in france over a number of years before it bit the dust itself. The fact that some believe Polestar is a "poster boy" for british print I think speaks loudest for the state of the UK market.

David Levy - 10 October 2008

Mr Mighty (I wish you would use your real name, bit of shame to hide your interesting comments behind an alias).

You are right, Germany was a closed market, but having seen that there home economy was'nt going to support there current and future business, they looked further afield (good thing really as it gave me a job !!!). You are right in part about the UK being in chaos. I have worked for 2 UK web printers, and I won't name names, but one was (and according to contacts within the company) still is chaos, and one who was particularly good. Your point about large pagination presses is agood one. The thought that a large pagination press can erode into the gravure market is sort of true, as my comapny does just that. But the distinct advantage gravure has is that it can print non A4 work just as efficiently. If you are lets say a catalogue company producing 3 million catalogues, your biggest cost by far is paper. If you can reduce the page size of your publication from A4, without impacting on the design, then you can save a serious amount of paper, and therefore money. Gravure and too a certain extent short grain and short cut of web printing can achieve this. A 72pp A4 web press cannot. And there lies the nonsense of printers who say that they will but a large pagination A4 cut of press and steal work from gravure. If the people responsible for buying these machines knew anything about the market, they would not make such decisions. But there you go, they clearly have no idea about the market, hence they are in the sh*$ !!! As for 20k runs on such machines, if I suggested we print 20k on one of our large machines, I would be laughed out of the company. Crazy you could think you could make money out of such a job (clearly they are not, hence the situation).

[removed on request of author]

The Mighty wind - 10 October 2008

David

I agree on all points apart from the implied inflexibility of the new 72pp presses. Although the headline pagination is high they are capable of producing a wide range of paginations below the 72pp and in some formats higher. The variable cut off versions are even more interesting and in either form they can produce much more [and less] than standard A4 it just needs a little imagination and flair.